Talk:Undine

I've seen a few claymores that we can't know for sure what type of claymore they are (offensive or defensive). Based on Undine's story it would make more since if she was defensive. Is there any part where we would know for sure what type she is? And if we can't know for sure should we leave it at unknown? Bramimond 13:25, June 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * The only definitive sigh to tell that a Claymore is defensive type is regeneration: offensive types cannot do that. However, if a warrior never regenerated on-screen, it doesn't mean that she is offensive... --Koveras Alvane 14:17, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Offensive types can regenerate. Here's why (with 3 examples of direct proof from the manga in "sections" A, B1, and B2 below):
1. The manga never says that offensive types can't regenerate, only that it is harder (My theory: requires more yoki) for them to do so, and easier (My theory: requires less yoki) for defensive types to do so.

2. Ophelia (at the bottom of the river against Clare, before Irene shows up) and Irene (in her chat with Clare during their training of the Quick Sword in the crater-shaped mountain valley) gives us the only explanation about why there's offensive types and defensive types, and what they are.

According to Ophelia and Irene:

An offensive type Claymore is simply one whom cares more about killing their opponent then their own survival or life or "living to fight another day", and whom protects those they care about, indirectly, by trying to kill the one whom is attacking/threatened those that they care about.

A Defensive type Claymore is simply one whom cares more about their own survival or life or "living to fight another day" than anything else, and whom will directly try to protect others by defensively protecting them (like by parrying, blocking, stopping attacks against those others).

3. Offensive types can indeed heal, re-attach, and even regenerate too.

........................................

Regeneration can be done by offensive types: (proof below)

'''A. chapter 64 page 8. Rubel to Rafaela: "What's with that left eye? Even if you're an offensive type, you should be able to regenerate it."'''

'''B1. chapter 88 page 7. Deneve to Helen: "Retrieve your right hand! Start regenerating it right away, along with you eye!"'''

'''B2. chapter 88 page 25. Helen (an offensive type): "My arm's re-attached, but I'm having some trouble with this eye. I might not be able to regenerate it."'''

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C. Even Dauf (an offensive type) can regenerate too.

D. The Abyssal Ones (offensive types) can regenerate too.

E. Priscilla can regenerate too. It is unknown whether Priscilla is an offensive type or defensive type, as she was determined to kill Teresa, even at the cost of her humanity and risked her life to do so as well, though obviously we've seen time and again, how Priscilla doesn't want to die also. Thus, we don't really know what type Priscilla is.

F. The Abyss Feeders/Eaters can regenerate as well.

G. Awakened Ophelia (an offensive type) could regenerate, whereas she said that she couldn't when she was still a Claymore.

4. Defensive types can indeed have sword techniques and use their yoki powers/abilities for offensive purposes.

Audrey, a defensive type, has her "Gentle Sword" sword technique

Galatea, a defensive type, can use her yoki to increase the rate at which her (offensive) power rises.

5. My theory about Regeneration:

Fact: When the Abyssal Ones use up too much of their yoki, they can not regenerate (and Riful and Luciela can't maintain their Awakened forms as well).

Therefore, Regeneration requires a certain amount of yoki. Since it is harder for offensive types to regenerate, it means that they need more yoki to regenerate, then defensive types do. Therefore, offensive types have to be more powerful in order to regenerate then defensive types have to be.

Strong proof of this is that Awakened Ophelia (an offensive type) could regenerate, whereas she said (and she was probably was accurate/correct) that she couldn't when she was still a Claymore. As a Claymore, Ophelia didn't have enough power (or yoki) to be able to regenerate, and thus she thought (wrongly) that offensive types couldn't regenerate. However, in Awakening, Ophelia became much more powerful, and now she was powerful enough to be able to regenerate, and was going to do so if Clare hadn't killed her, despite being an offensive type.

Also we have (Awakened) Dauf, whom is just barely able to regenerate (taking him ~ weeks to months to do so). Dauf must just barely have enough power to regenerate. He's just above the "line" to regenerate or not.

Now look at offensive type Rafaela (rank 2, but whom has the same power level as rank 1 Abyssal One Luciela according to Rubel), whom can regenerate according to Rubel.

Also we got offensive type rank 22 Helen (whom is much more powerful due to being a HA and a Ghost), whom according to Deneve and Helen herself, is able to regenerate (but not her eye, lol).

Then, obviously we got the powerful Abyssal Ones, whom thus can regenerate.

Also, we got uber powerful Priscilla whom can regenerate.

Finally, we got the very powerful Abyss Feeders, whom can regenerate.

HegemonKhan 07:18, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

Undine "leans" completely towards being an offensive type
While we don't know what type Undine is for certain, she certainly "leans" much more towards being an offensive type.

Info about the types:

An offensive type Claymore is simply one whom cares more about killing their opponent then their own survival or life or "living to fight another day", and whom protects those they care about, indirectly, by trying to kill the one whom is attacking/threatened those that they care about.

A Defensive type Claymore is simply one whom cares more about their own survival or life or "living to fight another day" than anything else, and whom will directly try to protect others by defensively protecting them (like by parrying, blocking, stopping attacks against those others).

My reasoning/judgement:

Due to feeling guilty over the death of her Claymore friend and her own weakness to save her friend, Undine has risked her humanity, by using high level of yoki in order to keep her muscles bulked up all the time (well, at least while she's in public and in battles). We see this similar bulking of muscles in Priscilla when she was passed 70% yoki release. This presents an issue with Undine however. Undine has bulked up muscles, yet even while her eyes are silver (less then 10% yoki release). The only explanation is that Undine is also a Half Awaken, and thus can now bulk her muscles up at less then 10% yoki, rather then the usual over 70% yoki needed to bulk up the muscles. I'm going off on a tangent (Undine being a Half Awaken theory, lol), sorry.

Anyways, Undine has (offensive) bulked up muscles, uses two swords (offensive), desires to kill her opponents (offensive), protects her comrades by trying to kill the opponent (offensive), and risks her life, showing no desire to stay alive (offensive).

All of these things point to her being an offensive type and not a defensive type.

HegemonKhan 07:38, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

That last paragraph is all true but it doesn't fit with the impression you get of her in her story. And we do know that you can not change weather your defensive or offensive.

Also Irene does say she can make a new arm but it will just act as a normal human arm and would take months. http://www.1000manga.com/Claymore/38/23/

We can't be quite sure about the types of awakened beings, but we do know that many can regenerate although like the abyssal ones it seems unlikely that they were defensive. We could say that awakened beings can regenerate regardless of there type as a claymore but regald couldn't regenerate his arm while against Clare. My thoughts are all awakened beings can regenerate but offensive do it very slowly.

Bramimond 16:02, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

more about Regeneration (chapter 79 pages 3-4, specifically page 4):
yes, you're right, about Irene. I decided not to write about something related to this, but I guess I should have, so I'll do so now, lol

regeneration, regardless of offensive or defensive type, is based upon their MEMORY of the appearance of that body part they want/need to regenerate. Therefore, even defensive types, are unable to regenerate if they can't remember or don't know what their body part looks like that they want/need to regenerate. Thus, the longer a Claymore goes before regenerating, the harder it is for them to remember what that part of their body looked like, and thus they can no longer regenerate it, even if regeneration is other-wise easy for them. (Galatea, with Cynthia "nodding" in agreement, explains this to Miria, whom asks her about her missing eyes, after they had killed Agatha)

So, Irene...

1. simply doesn't have enough power/yoki (is too weak of an offensive Claymore) to regenerate her left arm

or

2. it has s been so long that she no longer rememebers what her missing left arm looks like

or

3. simply had no need/reason/want to regenerate it (even though she might be able to), as she "retired" from being a warrior (Claymore), and wanted to live peacefully by herself as a "human" in her secluded crater-shaped mountain valley.

All (well maybe not all, but at least some) Claymores (defensive or offensive), if they are unable to regenerate their Claymore body parts back, can regenerate their body parts back, but they'll actually be human body parts (strangely, which I don't understand why yet, even with speculations) instead.

HegemonKhan 04:45, July 1, 2010 (UTC)